Predestined to Make Choices
I’ve been reading a book series lately about a group of people that are “gifted” with special talents that were foretold of in a lost letter written by the apostle Paul. They are constantly barraged with bad dealings since there’s a evil sorceror on their trail and all, but everytime they come to an obstacle or hardship, they fall back on the whole, “God must want us to be here for a reason” thing.
Because they’re “foretold of”.
It’s been stewing in my brain again. Because I like that reassurance they have… They know that where they are is where God put them…
Now, in the past, I’ve written about predestination vs. free will and each time I do, I seem to have a different viewpoint on the situation. Predestination sounds awesome, in theory. I love the idea of being destined for something. The idea that no matter what comes my way, I know that it’s God’s plan. There’s a certain reassurance in it that makes you feel like you could handle pretty much anything. Because you know you’ll be okay.
For me, where it falls apart is the people that aren’t going to Heaven. We all know there’s that. But, the idea of a God that would sentence people to eternity without him seems… harsh.
But, with the argument of free will, there’s no reassurance. Maybe you’re not in the right place? What if you’re supposed to be going to school for something else? Are you supposed to be in missions? What’s the plan, God? However, if people can make their own destiny, then they can pave their own way to Heaven or Hell. Their choices affect where they wind up. What side of the fence they wind up on.
I’m seeking the wisdom of the internet. Why do you believe what you believe? Help me out!
This probably won’t go over big with my baptist buddies, but I don’t believe in predestination.
How does free will jive with predestination? If Joe is a devout and humble servant his whole life, but he’s still going to hell because he was predestined to do so, then what’s the point? I’m not saying you’re saved by works, but I’d be a tad disappointed if I lived my life for Christ, only to find out I’m going to hell anyway. I’ve also had friends that use the pre-d argument to excuse bad choices – “”God knew I was going to do that.” That’s weak.
I’ll stop now before I write a blog post.
And another thing, you ever notice how everyone who believes in predestination just naturally assumes that they’re going to heaven? How’s that work? Okay, really shutting up now.
If ever there was a million dollar question… this is it!
I look at predestination like this:
God knew from before he spoke the universe into existence that, should he start the ball rolling, you would do all of the things you’ve ever done and all the things you’ll ever do and even that you would be sitting here right now reading this.
He knew that from the moment he said “Let there be light”, your destiny would be set. If he had never started it all off, you would never have been where you are today. So by creating the universe, He was predestining you to be who you are and do what you do.
That’s my simplistic view of predestination. Not that he has stolen your free will but that he knew what you would choose and he gave you life anyway.
It would be severely limiting God to say that his plan cannot encompass our free will. He knows what is best for us but he also knows whether or not we will choose to do what is best – and his plan includes our choices.
There are countless testimonies of people who have refused to do what God told them was best for them and have come full circle 10, 15, 20, 30 years on and finally gone to do what he was calling them to do all those years before.
I don’t think we can always say for certain that God definitely wants us to be where we are (although sometimes we can), but that doesn’t mean we have screwed up his eternal, all encompassing plan. God doesn’t force us to do what we don’t want to do but he usually gently teaches us and guides us so that we get there in the end.
Just because God knows what we are going to do before we do it, that doesn’t mean we don’t have the free will to choose. It just means that he knows in advance what our choice will be.
That probably didn’t help in the slightest, but it’s all I’ve got!
This is a topic of interest to me – and though I still have some questions (I will always have questions – my first word was ‘why’)
I believe that our creator loves us so much that to give us anything other than free will/choices would be impossible. Brain, I believe that the choices we make determine our eternal destiny – if not, we are robots.
Predestination – whether where I (or you) will spend eternity or exactly what will happen in our lives is control/dictatorship and I don’t believe God is that.
Yes, there are select verses you can quote that could say otherwise, but I’m not one to use ‘verse grenades’ I prefer to look at the whole Bible as a story and the image I see when looking at the big picture is a loving God giving us free will/choice. Good books usually leave the viewpoint they want you to remember most towards the end and as the Bible wraps up centuries of history, the final portion shows that Jesus loved and died for all!
I also don’t believe God causes tragedies to happen “for a reason” – this is earth and stuff happens – and though some good can come out of evil – God isn’t evil and doesn’t cause evil.
Someone much wiser than me says it this way … William P. Young in “The Shack” (page 185)
“Papa (God) says “Mack, just because I work incredible good out of unspeakable tragedies doesn’t mean I orchestrate the tragedies. Don’t ever assume that my using something means I caused it or that I need it to accomplish my purposes. That will only lead you to false notions about me.”
Looking forward to reading others thoughts,
Janet
i don’t usually get involved in religious arguments, but i actually have an opinion on this one.
Predestination seems incredibly depressing to me. To know that every decision I make is determined by someone else would piss me off. Half the fun of being alive is to make your own decisions and the consequences of those decisions. To say that everything was predetermined would make all of it pointless wouldn’t it? Why bother thinking about anything if the decisions are already made?
I believe in predestination. I don’t see how else Romans 9 and pretty much the entirety of the Old Testament can be taken. Does that mean we don’t have choices? That’s hard, and I don’t profess to have the answer to that at all. But I certainly do not think that the Almighty God of the universe is subject to our choices, as though He has to go behind us with a broom to fix everything. I don’t see any evidence for that kind of God in Scripture. Yes, He works all things for the good of those who love Him, but does that mean He has to take what we give Him and then think up with ways to make it work out all right? No, for God does what He wants; He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and He gives out good and bad at His discretion.
There are even examples of God deliberately sending evil in Judges 9, 1 Samuel 16 and 18, and Job. But, we know that He’s not a God who takes pleasure in evil (Psalm 5). Does He enjoy bringing bad things? I don’t think so, based on Scripture. But does He do it? Oh yeah. I don’t know how else you can explain the Old Testament — particularly the prophets. He would tell other nations to oppose the Israelites to varying degrees (as a punishment to a chronically idolatrous nation), and then He’d turn around and promise to repay those nations for what they’d done, even though He told them to do it! (Easy example: Pharaoh.)
It’s weird for us to think about, because we always like to throw around phrases like, “I can’t believe in a God who…” and then we impose our own, subjective morality upon Him. I think that’s quite dangerous. I also think it’s okay to not understand the predestination/free will thing and to be comfortable in the fact that GOD is in control! Read, pray, worship, and accept Him for the mystery that He is.
All decent points so far. I’m most intrigued by xy’s comment though. Because I think I’m on the same page. What about the people that are “unsaved”, “unchurched”, or whatever other label we throw on people? How does the idea of God ultimately being the final say on where you’re going make them feel?
And, if it’s all already determined, why did God send his son? What’s the purpose of Jesus’ sacrifice if it’s already laid out?
Good arguments so far everyone. Let’s get some more. I’m not convinced yet. Someone make me a believer one way or the other! Get your friends in on this age-old debate which may or may not already be laid out…
Oh, and Vanity of Vanities: I don’t think God ever sends evil.
I’m one of Katdish’s buddies. I’m a Baptist. I don’t believe in predestination. Don’t tell “the others”…
Free will and predestination can’t live together, in my opinion. God doesn’t force Himself on us. He wants us to want Him and pursue Him just like He wants us and pursues us.
What was the point of Jesus living, then dying, if we were already damned or blessed before we were ever even born?
I think Romans 9 (since V of V brought it up)
isn’t speaking on who God decides to choose, I think it’s speaking on how His justice isn’t necessarily our justice. And I don’t think we can effectively argue the OT as being evidence of predestination since we all were born under the New Covanent.
I’ll be back because I know someone will argue that and like you, Brian, I want to be a part of this age-old debate and learn from it.
Oh yeah…and I don’t think God sends out evil either. But He allows it. And evil spreads because we make evil CHOICES.
I love my wife. Sometimes I know what she is going to do because she always does it. Sometimes she really surprises me and I love that, too. Either way I love experiencing life with her. I don’t have any children, but when I’ve worked with them I see a similar dynamic. Only in this case I have power. I know more. I am stronger. I have a longer perspective, and yet the situation is similar. I know in advance much of what they’ll do, and many times I am surprised. Sometimes I have to put aside my power in order to truly love them, and I love experiencing life with them, too. I think God likes surprises, and I know God loves us. God has a plan that cannot be thwarted, but we have ample room to freely make our own plans. If Jesus is truly the revelation of God, then that revelation includes self-limitation. God chooses to be surprised.
Jesus said, “The Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the good news.”
God determines the presence of his kingdom. We choose to repent and believe, because God determined that we would have such a choice.
God looks into a small space within himself calls it eternity. God looks into eternity and “finds” a small place called time. God looks into time and finds a small place called earth. And on this earth God rules within his creation. God has a plan. We have a purpose. We are so small. God is so awesome. That we even get a little clue is a testimony to God’s great grace. Who can understand it all? Living with some mystery may indeed testify to the strength of one’s faith.
God is God, and He is God all by Himself. No answers, just some thoughts.
It’s both. We can not begin to fathom God’s oversight of our universe. I think we are both predestined and have free will – we simply can not comprehend how to hold both truths at the same time. The future makes us confused, but the past we can look back and say “oh, of course. God was with me all the time, even through the bad decisions.”
Oh, and I wouldn’t be so quick to judge who you think will and will not go to heaven., either.
Thanks for a thought-provoking post!
Nicely said, Bradley!
I agree with you completely, Bradley. And to those of you who don’t believe God sends evil, is that because you don’t like the idea of it? I don’t like it, either. But, I recommend reading those passages that literally say God sent evil and think about it again. I’m not saying I’m right; I’m saying that I don’t know how else to interpret Judges 9:23, 1 Samuel 16:15-16, 1 Samuel 18:10, Job 16:11. I honestly don’t see how it can be any other way, as much as it is a shock. All good and all evil is at His disposal to use as He pleases. Just as Romans 9 says He creates some people destined for destruction. Isn’t that His right?
I’m not saying I like all the implications of it. I just don’t see how a man-centered universe based on a God subject to our whims makes any sense Biblically.
(Good topic to bring up, though! There’s a reason this has been debated for ages… listen to what Bradley said, ’cause I think he’s on to something! We can sit here and give opinions backed with Scripture all day, but in the end, both are taught in the Bible. It has to be both. But I think predestination must be superior because it is from God. Our choices must be subject to His will.)
There’s a difference between evil and judgment. God is light and there is no darkness in Him. Judgment and justice are the same word in Hebrew. If you attribute evil directly to God you are way off from God’s revelation of himself. You must distinguish between judgment and evil. Ok, I know, a little dogmatic there…
Then why does the Bible use the word “evil”?
(And I don’t mind any rebuttal, dogmatic or otherwise! More perspective equals more thinking. That’s good!)
I think I see what you are saying. When mom got sick, she kept asking why God allowed it to happen to her.
My answer was "Who knows?" It could be anything from sickness brought into the world by Adam and Eve, him slowing her down so she has more time to reflect on Him, slowing me down because He knew I'd take care of her, Him knowing that a catastrophe I'd be in the middle of if I wasn't home taking care of her….Who knows? Maybe it wasn't God's doing at all, but was a Job sort of thing. The point is we have to trust Him as to how this will all pan out in the end…
Evil is the opposite of good; evil, darkness, injustice, chaos, unrighteousness are all in the same category. Now, what somebody may consider to be injustice (from a human perspective) may actually be justice (from God’s perspective).
Now we all must admit regardless of viewpoint, that this is not easily sorted out. Have you ever noticed 2 Sam 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1? One says the Lord incited and the other says Satan incited? Which one is it? Could the Lord and Satan incite the same thing? From one (and I would admit) correct perspective (Because I do believe God is Sovereign), Satan serves the Lord. One might “logically” conclude then that whatever Satan does the Lord does. The problem comes back to what degree there is free will. If man does evil, predestination view must conclude every time that God does it. If Satan does evil, then predestination must conclude everytime that God does it. Who is Satan and how did he come to be? Who is man and how did he come to be? To what degree was/is there free will in human behavior? If Man was made in God’s image, and God choose to create, then could not man choose to also participate in creation? What was the first mandate in Genesis 1? “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
These words do not answer this question clearly, but I believe it is healthy to see both sides of this argument and to choose (forgive me) to live in tension with it and allow God to be God and for our faith to be stretched with both biblical truth and mystery. Deuteronomy 29:29 says, “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.”
I completely agree.
Interesting points everyone. I think I’m leaning toward the idea of it being a mixture of the two that’s just kind of impossible for us to understand, but I think that’s the same reasoning that bugs me about it. I think I get all hot and bothered because I can’t reason it out.
Also, I’m happy to see discussion and not arguments! Disagreements, but not fights. Good work everyone. This is going better than I could have thought. We’ve gotten a lot of great responses and insight. One of my favorites so far has been Ryan’s, and one of the most commented back on has been Vanity. That’s awesome.
Some highlights: “It has to be both. But I think predestination must be superior because it is from God.” – Vanity
“God doesn’t force Himself on us. He wants us to want Him and pursue Him just like He wants us and pursues us.”- Marni
“I’ve also had friends that use the pre-d argument to excuse bad choices – ‘God knew I was going to do that.’ That’s weak.” – katdish
“To know that every decision I make is determined by someone else would piss me off.” -xy
“If Jesus is truly the revelation of God, then that revelation includes self-limitation. God chooses to be surprised.” – Ryan
My 2 cents. . .
Predestination does NOT work theologically. Though I believe that GOd predestines events, He does NOT predestine the outcome. i.e. God set up the events that would lead to me choosing salvation, but it was my free will decision.
God allowed (not directly predestined) the events that led to some horrible tragedy. It is our choice how we deal with it.
THe idea of complete predestination goes against the very nature of God, God Himself would be insane to create a world decide to make it sinful (Which He hates sin, so why the hell would you make something you hate?) just so he can force his creation to kill Him/His Son, to save but a few select that he decided. . . it’s more illogical than a drunkard trying to explain the theory of relativity. . .
Great discussion. Fun to jump in! Here I go.. Katdish and Peter will probably regret RT’ing this to me on twitter because this is going to be a long comment!
Brian, please chop if this long comment is out of bounds!
I’m a word study gal, so if I take a look at how many times the word “predestination” (Greek proorizo) occurs in the NT, there are only 6 verses.
From these 6 verses, we can observe the following:
1. Predestination is only used in “positive” references, meaning in relation to those who find God and accept His purpose. These are people who respond to the Gospel.
2. Predestination is NOT used in “negative” reference, meaning God did not “predestine” people to go to hell or damnation.
3. Predestination is used to explain:
A. Acts 4:28 – God’s PURPOSE is predestined.
God’s purposes are sovereign, but it is so great, it can work with the free will of man. We can make a ton of good and bad choices, but God will work through it all to accomplish His purpose.
God doesn’t condone or use evil, but, He can work in spite of it and through it.
B. Rom 8:28 – God’s purpose to CONFORM US TO JESUS’ LIKENESS is predestined.
God created us to be like Him, from beginning in Gen. He had good works in mind for us, to reflect Jesus. Even the faith walkers in the OT were accredited to have faith because of Jesus (Heb 11). God’s purpose for conformity to His Son has always been decided.
C. Rom 8:29 – God’s CALLING and JUSTIFICATION of each believer is predestined.
This means we are individually called to salvation. Even though there are a gazillion references that let us know Jesus died for one and for all on the cross in Romans, I think the text is saying God still INDIVIDUALLY choose us. We are not covered under a “blanket” forgiveness. We each must choose by our free will, and that is why predestination and free will can go hand in hand. If someone hasn’t specifically invited you to something, how can you say, you were exercsing the will to accept?
D. 1 Cor 2:7 God’s mysterious WISDOM was PREDESTINED.
This is one of my favorite passages. Because it combines the mystery of the Gospel, God’s thoughts, His wisdom — with the free will of man, given what the Holy Spirit reveals. So, this tells me God is never caught off guard by any crap we find ourselves in because His assessment (wisdom) of the situation was already predetermined. He already knew what He would think about the situations we find ourselves in. But, He did not will us to be in them. Because we chose them (when we are outside of His will).
E,F. Eph 1:5, 1:11 Our ADOPTION, INHERITANCE, & PURPOSE are predestined.
Praise the Lord! He has something predetermined for each one of us individually. And he did not just go to the earthly orphanage and just load us all home in a truck. He stopped by to see each of us, look in our eyes, hold our hands, and tell us He loved us and wanted to adopt us. And we each get a share of the pie.
Okay. Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts.
But seriously, Bonnie. Tell us what you really think.
There is some seriously good discussion going on here. Color me impressed! Hi Angela!
Bonnie – Just because the Bible only mentions Predestination in positive terms doesn’t mean that it isn’t the negative to. The fact that God could predestine some people to Heaven, but NOT others would, in fact, be predestining them for Hell. Right? Unless you’re saying that God predestines some to go to Heaven, and the others he’s just going to be surprised about…?
Also, can we be sure that the word “predestined” is actually in the Bible? I’m no Greek or Hebrew languistics major, but I wonder what the terms actually are that were translated into it. Does anyone know? Because I’d bet that there’re versions of the Bible without the word too. Just a thought.
Hi Katdish. But you’re not my friend anymore because I’m a good, Calvinistic Baptist. You’re sooooooooooooooooooooo out of the club for your quite obviously heretical thoughts.
luv ya! (secretly)
Maybe the problem is that predestination is always seen as an individual thing and a behavioral thing. I.e. individuals are predestined to do certain things against their will. Check out the classic “predestination” passage in Scripture (Ephesians 1). Paul is writing to a group of people–a group of Gentiles who are adopted by God, in Christ … predestined to do good works and share in the glory of God, through Christ. … Check out the “we”s and the plural “you”s. This is not about God plucking out individuals and forcing them believe in him and obey him. It’s about God pouring his affection on those who believe in his Son–his family–and saving them, through the work of his Son.
Hey Brian. As a follower of Christ for a few years now, I, too, have wrestled with the idea of predestination VS. free will. They almost seem like oxymorons, don’t they? If God gave us free will, then there wouldn’t be a thing as predestination, because there wouldn’t be a way to determine where we were to end up at the end of our lives, yet if that was true, that would prove that God was not all-knowing like we’re to believe. I’ve been a follower of Christ for a few years now, and the best I can come up with is that God knows what we’re going to choose, yet because WE don’t yet, our destiny isn’t “certain” as far as we’re to understand. That may sound like a cop-out, but I’m under the impression that there are lots of things that we, as humans, aren’t going to understand until we’ve passed on, and there’s a chance we may not understand “all” when that happens, either.
Hey Brian. I gotta tip my hat to MattG who encapsulated my thoughts in a much shorter response!
Good follow-up questions. No, I’m not saying God predestined some specific bunch to go to heaven, while others are “maybes”. I am saying this: God has predetermined the following before hand — salvation, adoption, inheritance, conformity to His son, purpose (the 6 verses I pointed out) — for EVERYONE. But it is up to the individual to exercise his/her free will to claim (appropriate) his/her place in God’s Kingdom. Romans 5 is the authoritative chapter that explains how through one man, Adam, everyone fell into sin. But, through one man, Jesus, all men can receive God’s gift of salvation. Jesus died for ALL men, regardless of who accepted Him (predestined plan and purpose of God). Jesus carried the sins of the world on the cross, including those who did not accept Him. The key is that once a person chooses to accept God’s forgiveness (free will), he goes to the claims department and cashes in on his redemption card. This is a redemption card that he did not pay for, but is free for him to cash, because God had already paid for it (predestined plan).
Yes, we can know for sure the Greek word “proorizo” is used only 6 times in the New Testament. Here is the meaning:
1. to predetermine, decide beforehand
2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand
To determine the English word used by other translations, you would need to go look up each reference (the 6 I pointed out above) to see what word they used.
Just for fun, I quickly looked at what word was used for “proorizo” in the Eph 1:5 passage. This is what I got:
NIV, NASB, KJ – predestined
Revised Standard Version – destined
You can go to town by clicking on this link, to get all the references & use the pull down menu to check out the different translations:
http://tinyurl.com/rc65qn
I also wanted to say, Brian, I really liked the way you presented this issue. So succinctly in a way that opened up discussion. And great commenters, too. I feel like I’m in a room talking with all of you. Luv it!
Thank you all for contributing to this conversation! I’m glad it went well!
If you have more comments, feel free to continue to post them! This has been very enlightening!